Wikisource talk:Religious texts

Need texts! Also, I'm not particularly married to the organisation scheme, it's just off the top of my head. —Ashley Y 06:42, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

That's fine. Apart from the word "paganism", which I've removed, I find that it is a good beginning. As one who would tend to be highly critical of having a too long list of top level categories, I must say that I found this one easy to accept. I did consider the possibility of putting it in priority above "Historical documents" on the list. This reflects the view that a text that can be on either list should by preference be on the religious texts list. Eclecticology 20

16, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hello, I'm back to WS after a long absence (during most of which I had no computer access), and now I'll try to contribute from time to time. I noticed that "Religious Texts" was added. Actually, from the beginning I thought they should be here, because they are of broad interest to a wide range of people, but I thought they could be an important part of a subject index. Actually, though, now that I see it listed on the left as one of the "special" categories, I think it was probably the right thing to do, precisely because of the special interest it holds for people.

In my opinion, however, the recent addition of Old Testament versions (Septuagint, Vulgate, KJV) under "Judaism" should be reconsidered. First of all, it is well known that there is no such thing as the "Old Testament" in the Jewish tradition. Secondly, these are Christain texts: the Vulgate and the KJV are the work of Christians; the Septuagint, while produced by Jews in ancient times and even used by them, has still not been part of the Jewish tradition for millenium and was only preserved as an important document by the Church. Thus, I suggest that these be moved to "Christianity." If no-one objects in the near future I will make the change (or someone else can).

I suggest that for Judaism (and each group for which we upload texts) we respect its traditions, and if a Jewish version of the Bible is included on WS we call it "Hebrew Bible" or "Tanakh".

By the way, I'm going to add "The Mishnah" now, as a suggestion of a text that I would love to see a free version of.Zabek 12:43, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I really don't think that the suggested move would be a good idea. The original nature is perhaps most important for classification if we are going to avoid confusing people. There is no doubt that the basis for what is now called the "Old Testament" was originally a Jewish text. Is anything other than the Hebrew version considered a strictly Jewish text? I would tend to consider these various translations a Christian adaptations rather than Christian texts, and perhaps the lines linking to the translations could show that. Eclecticology 18:37, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Eclecticology. The idea is that translations should fall under the primary material. So the Septuagint derives from the Hebrew Bible, so it belongs underneath. Ashley Y

As for the names, I think as much as possible we should use whatever names the texts call themselves, in the original language and script if possible. Certainly for the KJV translation, that's "The Old Testament". I don't know what the others are, doubtless someone who does can change them. The name of the Hebrew originals should be the Hebrew names if Hebrew script is not a problem, IMO. —Ashley Y 07:51, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hebrew script works fine in Unicode. These titles can be accompanied by a romanization. Eclecticology 10:38, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments; after reading them I more or less agree with both of you. Firstly, I it is definitely true that putting various versions and translations under a different category would be quite confusing - translations should indeed fall under the source material. I also like the idea that we should use whatever names the texts call themselves. (Which would mean, by the way, that LXX should be a translation of "Hebrew Bible" but Vulgate is "Old Testament.") You ask, BTW, if any other text than the Hebrew is considered a Jewish text. The answer is yes: The Aramaic Targumim are a product of the classical rabbinic tradition and are still part of traditional Jewish practice to this very day. (Yemenite Jews still read them along with the Hebrew, and they are always printed with the standard Jewish commentaries. This is opposed to the LXX which is only historically Jewish.)

Perhaps the following might add clarity, reduce confusion, and also reduce any possible bias: To divide the category "Hebrew Bible" into subsections such as the following (off the top of my head):

• • Masoretic Text
  • Ancient and Classical Versions (which would include Qumran variants, LXX, Peshitta, etc.)
  • Rabbinic Targum

When it comes to English translations of all these things, once again I like the idea of using whatever the the texts call themselves. Perhaps it might be good to have separate subsections for translations from Christian versus Jewish orientations.

Sorry I forgot to Log In. These last comments were mine.Zabek 15:57, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The subsections are probably a good idea, but there's no need to do very much of it until we have more real texts in place, and have a better understanding of actual needs. Just what we have listed now is going to involve a lot of work. The Hebrew Bible alone is quite long, and there are considerations about how long a Wikisource page should be without causing undue strain on some user's slow browser. The Wikisource:Religious texts page would be a high level Table of Contents in a top down scheme of organization. Eclecticology 17:50, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Mormonism

I see that Mormonism was moved from under the Christianity section. There is some controversy over whether Mormonism is a Christian religion. I originally put the religion under Christianity since Mormons consider themselves Christian, they accept Jesus Christ as Savior of mankind, and the official name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But if the consensus is to have Mormonism separate, then ok, but I don't think it makes much sense to have it in the Middle Eastern section as it was founded in the United States and is now spread over most of the world. In fact I don't particularly like classifying all the religions by where they started, but thats another matter. Basically I think Mormonism should be recognized under Christianity, though as a subsection so that its clear that most Christians don't use the Mormon scriptures. Any other thoughts? Since the edit was made by an anon, I'll probably make the change back to how it was if there aren't any objections in a week or so. thanks - Biggins 16:47, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There is NO reason why Mormons shouldn't be under Christianity. I mean, there are those who say Mormons aren't Christian, but those are the same people who say that Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christian. We're not here to make political statements. Tell me why Mormonism is an American religion? While Joseph Smith started The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormons don't consider that the start of their religion. While the Book of Mormon is set in "the Americas," Mormons also believe in the Bible. While the Headquarters is currently in the US, there are more members outside the US than in. So why call it an American church? They're a Christian religion, and the fourth largest church in the US, so they shouldn't have to defend themselves. And while you're free to put The Book of Mormon in a subcategory, you'd also have to put all the other non-standard books in the same subcategory. We all agree on the Old Testament and the New Testament, but none of the others. The Apocrypha is almost exclusive Catholic; not many clergy have seen a Book of Common Prayer; and we all have different hymns. My point is, we probably shouldn't have a subset; just put the Book of Mormon under Christianity. Thanks. - mrcolj 21:45, 15 Apr 2005

Eating sacred-texts.com

Is there any reason why we shouldn't copy everything from The Internet Sacred Text Archive? Apparently it's all in the public domain. —Ashley Y 03:15, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The same question applies to documents at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Perhaps just having the link to that site is enough. Note also that many of their documents are in an XML format (ThML) and are converted to HTML with the aid of an XSL or a Perl script. Has there been any discussion of file formats for documents here? — HenryHartley 16:07, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Alphbetical order

It seems to me this whole list should simply be in alphabetical order. Not only is the current list cumbersome and unclear, the "geographical" listing is often misleading and in some cases perhaps completely wrong. Anything besides alphabetical is likely to lead to disagreements. Dovi 08:24, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean classify religions by alphabetical order ? Or documents ? Yann 09:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Religions. But you are right - another list for documents would be useful too.Dovi 11:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Dovi. Only a person who knows about all the religions will find a geographical breakdown any help at all. People who don't know much about where the religion is predominantly practiced might find the current method of organization confusing. Organizing the religions alphabetically would greatly improve that page, I believe. Zhaladshar 14:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Eliminate Pseudo-Geographical Categorization

Does not make sense to classify based on purported "origin". In any case, today the practice of major "religions" is global.

• Done. Yann 09:17, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Translations in the Scheme

Need a good way to manage the growing list of translations for the source texts. Especially for the Christianity section, where the list of the "Lord's Prayer" is growing. Since it all refers to the same source material, need a good way to handle this in the context of the multi-lingual feature of the Wiki as a whole...

• I put the Lord's Prayer in a separate page. Yann 09:18, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Cannot figure out how to fix red links.

Been trying to fix read links so they actually lead somewhere, and can't figure it out.Pepe Oats (talk) 02:04, 15 February 2019 (UTC) Nevermind, it just occurred to me that I was attempting to link to another wikisource.